But if Marty Peretz is right, the administration has taken that “last option” off the table. As Jennifer pointed out, he seconded a report that Dennis Ross is apparently out as special envoy on Iran. I found this detail particularly interesting:
I had an inkling of trouble a few weeks ago when The New Republic was negotiating to publish a small part of a new book, Myths, Illusions and Peace: Finding a New Direction for America in the Middle East, which Ross co-wrote with David Makovsky. Yes, the text of the book raises the possibility of a strike of last resort against Iran’s nuclear installations. In any event, the State Department wouldn’t give its approval. And you now know why. Or do you? I believe it’s because the administration has given up the military option.
By the way, Peretz sort of speeds past this, but it would have been bad enough had Ross been removed because the Iranians demanded it.
It’s too bad the Bush torture regime pretty much ruined what moral superiority we had over the Iranians with Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, right? (Not to mention Haditha.) If you ever tried that argument with the Iranian (or the Chinese, or the Russian) public they would just spit it back in your face.
Underlining the importance of following the letter of our laws in the global war for hearts and minds…
It’s also ironic that you would mention child executions as proof that a civilization isn’t great… considering the US executed 19 minors since 1990. But don’t sweat it– the supreme court outlawed the practice recently– so I guess the good ol usa has a shot at greatness again.
http://asiapacific.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-children-eng
Great civilizations do all kinds of horrible things.
Rome had its arenas, China its footbinding, Britain its rampant capital punishment, transportation, enclosures, and the Irish famine.. We had the Trail of Tears, slavery, lynching and myriad dubious wars. Today, we consume the drugs that corrupt Afghanistan, Colombia, and Mexico, and recently legitimized torture.
Each of these civilizations achieved great things as well.
So, do we proclaim anathemas we are in no moral position to issue, or do we look for common ground, even with people who do nasty things? “Jaw, jaw,” as even your St. Winston said, “is better than war, war.” Obama’s right to try for rapprochement.
I think I have to disagree with both Obama and E.O. Ultimately this is not about a “civilization” per se; this is about how they practice their faith. Their current practice is not out of line with what they believe. That is the crux of the matter, our President has to understand how they practice their faith and that they see nothing wrong with their behavior. They do not believe that they have to change; they believe that we have to change – one way or another.
There will not be a give and take. They do not think they have to. Besides, They believe that God is on their side.
Spare us with your sanctimonous of being moral. Being passive and doing nothing against atrocities is no moral either.
I have not heard from liberals of any outcry for women being mutilated, rape and persecuted or political oppositions, journalists and ordinary citizens who have been imprisoned around the globe because they dare to speak out against their government.
Your talk is cheap.
The tu quoque argument is puerile–liberals love it, because it avoids thinking’s heavy lifting. One could spend all day debating distinctions, but the only necessary one is that we can have this debate, Iranians can’t.
I don’t trust the source. iran focus are shah weirdies
The NYT blog, the Lede ( http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/iranian-blogger-dies-in-prison/ ) mentions Roxana Saberi:
Two weeks ago, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that the U.S. State Department had been working through intermediaries to win Ms. Saberi’s release, and an Iranian official said that Ms. Saberi would be released “within days.” Her father told Ms. Hilsum that if his daughter was not released by the start of the Iranian New Year’s celebrations this Friday evening, she is unlikely to leave Evin Prison before the end of the two-week holiday.
What if President Obama had mentioned Ms. Saberi in his new year’s greeting and challenged the Iranian regime to show its good faith by freeing her?
5 try looking harder. you’ll not have any difficulty in finding concern for Roxane Saberi and other women on liberal web sites.
Talk is indeed cheap, why cheapen it further?
Lester, don’t be an ass. Saberi is indeed imprisoned and being denied access to the world. Her announced crime was “buying a bottle of wine.”
The hollowness of Obama’s protest that Bush was indifferent to world opinion is shown up every time he speaks about Iran and fails to mention the horrific crimes it perpetuates against its people.
Americans should write their senators and representatives and demand that actions be taken, from resolutions denouncing these crimes to steps to shore up sanctions and to pressure applied to the White House to ensure that no “dialogue” with the regime will be held that ignores these atrocities.
#11, How can you expect Obama to do that when he has basically pulled those issues off the table with China and Russia? I understand what you are saying, but his focus is to patch up what he can, however that might look, and then refocus on what he believes he is comfortable with – non-foreign issues.
Liberals has not done a thing. All they do is talk nonsense and do photo-ops.
Please, spare us your fake moral superiority.
13 Nothing fake about it.
Let’s see, George W. Bush let Iran build a nuclear bomb and gave Iran a client state next door, which was paid for with American blood and treasure. But Obama videotaped a greeting. Yeah, Obama is much worse.
Agreed. Obama is worse indeed.
Magnificent! Now festerbestertester (h/t Don Martin) is beating up on the leastone — flames are spreading through the absurdly crowded theater. Delicious!
So, Dave–you were urging Bush to level Iran’s nuke works? By this and other messages you’re pressing Obama to pick up where Bush dropped the ball, and blast that sucker before it’s born? And I suppose if you’re worried that there’s an unspecified “client state” awaiting Iran, and you think that a bad thing, you’re even more eager to see Obama crank up the air force?
I think you’re having your little joke, no?
Certainly let’s equate pouring water on a cloth over someone’s face or playing loud music to stoning a person to death for adultery or blinding someone with acid. Those actions are absolutely morally equivalent. And, just as the North Vietnamese prison wardens that supervised the torture of POWs like John McCain have endured endless criticism from their own press and constant legal action from their government, so too shall the Iranian mullahs bring to justice those that have besmirched the reputation of Persia with their wicked conduct toward foreigners.
maynard — another problem with the “tu quoque” argument is that it’s so very frequently superficial, and falls apart on examination — as chuck martel’s post implies about franglo’s magnificent irrelevancies.
As a point of order, I note that Mr. Ottolenghi, who is not, as far as I know, a US citizen, is not responsible for US executions of minors for capital crimes. Giving franglo the benefit of the doubt, I won’t assume he meant to imply hypocrisy on Mr. Ottolenghi’s part.
Reply to #1: The Bush administration did not commit torture in either Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo. In Abu Ghraib, where the U.S. was prosecuting some of the officials – which is how the news media found out about it – inmates were teased, e.g., by being photographed naked, but not tortured. At Guantanamo. there never was any torture. The inmates at Guantanamo are enemy combatants, prisoners captured in battle who did not follow the laws of war, e.g., not having distinctive dress, and who do not qualify as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention. During World War II, such combatants were executed summarily both by the United States and Britain and by Germany. Under the Geneva Convention, they have no rights at all – but they have not been tortured. They live very well indeed. #1: What has happened to the American, Canadian, and other soldiers in Afghanistan captured by Al Quaeda???
JW, I don’t know what you consider torture, but many Americans in government service have come forth to say that the treatment at Guantanimo is torture.
One of my family members has been to the prison camp there and says that the do not live well.
Please do not construe my comment as in any denying the very basic truth of the nature of Al Qaeda’s inhumanity and the treatment they afford.
fuster – “many Americans in government service have come forth to say that the treatment at Guantanimo is torture. One of my family members has been to the prison camp there and says that the do not live well.”
I would certainly hope that they “do not live well.” But that hardly constitutes torture unless conditions at every maximum security prison across the U.S, and probably the world, for that matter, constitutes torture.
Dont confuse the two sentences. Not living well is no big deal.
The use of torture is.