At Tablet, Liel Leibovitz takes a look at why gun violence is less common in Israel–where many carry guns openly–than in the U.S.:
Why? In the days since 27 innocents, most of them children, were murdered in Sandy Hook Elementary School, all have been asking that question, trying to make sense of an ultimately senseless act. Simpler minds insisted that anyone who has ever argued in favor of anything but the absolute abolition of firearms was complicit in the murder of innocent children, while more astute thinkers tried to look past their indignation and heartbreak in search of sensible policy alternatives. Not surprisingly, they often ended up looking to Israel, a nation, went the argument, whose citizens are heavily armed yet rarely use their guns to shoot each other. This, more than one report noted, was due largely to Israel’s surprisingly strict gun-control legislation: Assault rifles are banned, registration is necessary, and a whole system of checks and requirements is in place to keep weapons out of the wrong hands. A popular statistic spread like wildfire on Facebook and Twitter: Only 58 Israelis were killed by guns last year, compared with 10,728 Americans.
It’s a compelling story. It’s also wrong: There’s much that we can learn from Israel when it comes to firearms, but it’s the state’s gun culture, not its gun laws, that keeps its citizens safe. …
How, then, to explain Israel’s relatively low rate of gun-related deaths? For Lior Nedivi, an independent firearms examiner in Jerusalem and the co-author of a comprehensive report comparing Israel’s gun laws and culture to that of the United States, the answer lies far from the law books. “An armed society,” Nedivi wrote, quoting the science fiction writer Robert A. Heinlein, “is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” It may be a bit odd to think of Israeli society as polite, but when it comes to guns it is, and for just the reason articulated by Heinlein: When everyone has a gun, guns are no longer seen as talismans by weak, frightened, and unstable men seeking a sense of self-validation, but as killing machines that are to be handled with the utmost caution and care.
Leibovitz goes on to argue that the U.S. should focus on educating people about sensible gun ownership, which seems too optimistic. Someone who is intent on carrying out a large-scale massacre at an elementary school is not going to be dissuaded by classes on gun rights and responsibilities. If there is a simple reason for the relatively small number of mass shooting spree events in Israel, it may have more to do with another point Leibovitz touched on. When a society is heavily armed and knows how to use these weapons, there is a much greater chance a gunman will be killed before he can reach his desired death toll–and maybe that alone is enough to stop some would-be killers from even trying.
Most of the mass shootings that have taken place in Israel were related to the conflict in the region, and the vast majority have been carried out by Palestinian terrorists against Israelis. In the last 10 years, at least two of these firearm terrorist attacks occurred at schools (both yeshivas). In both cases, the gunmen were not given the chance to end their own lives. They were killed by people at the schools who had guns.
That’s definitely not to argue that arming more people is a solution to mass shootings in America. Israel is different because many of the people who carry guns in public are trained soldiers, and military service is mandatory for almost everyone. The heroes who stopped the gunmen at the yeshivas were reportedly all either soldiers or enrolled in pre-military preparatory programs. But it also contradicts the notion that fewer guns equals more safety. There may be policy responses to the Sandy Hook Elementary shooting that could be helpful in small ways–a review of mental health treatment in this country is warranted, and even a debate about gun laws isn’t a bad idea. But there are no obvious, all-encompassing solutions and anyone who argues otherwise is selling something.
Actually, it should be noted that in the bloody massacre at Jerusalem's Yeshiva Merkaz Ha-Rav Kook, the country's leading religious Zionist seminary, the Israeli Arab police who first responded to the shooting failed to take any action against the killer. Instead two former yeshiva students enrolled in the IDF soldiers who were nearby used their own weapons to administer immediate Jewish justice to the killer. Indeed, as Israeli far-leftist organizations backed by the UN and EU increasingly hamstring police and IDF soldiers with regulations preventing them from using adequate force, more Israeli citizens are having to use their own weapons to protect themselves from terrorists in their daily life. And in Israel as in the US the left is constantly trying to prevent citizens from acquiring the weaponry needed to defend itself.
Perhaps another reason is that Israel's press and entertainment media do not turn mass killers into larger than life media figures. n n(Although of course the PA does.)
Your second point is more relevant than your first. A common foe celebrating such individuals serves to eliminate any ambivalence that might otherwise exist, An Israeli whose K-12 years weren't the most enjoyable still isn't going to have any sympathy for the perp because of the perp's support from the PA, which is not true here. n nWhen the high school in my hometown burned in 1972, a spectacular fire that actually was set by a police officer but that is another story, I am told that there were a large number of high school students cheering the fire on. We have a lot of anti-school songs in this country, including the classic below, things which simply would not exist if a common foe were claiming ownership of the thugs who do this stuff. n nThe _Battle Hymn of the Republic_, the Civil War-era anthem that starts "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord…." had a second set of words popular amongst many middle schoolers back in the day (and likely today as well): n n"Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school. nWe have tortured every teacher, we have broken every rule. nNow we're marching down the hall to shoot the Principal. nOur truth is marching on…." n n
He was a homicide bomber, he just used a gun rather than something else, and we are fortunate that it was a gun because that kept the death toll way down. And banning guns won’t prevent this from happening again.
He killed 20 children — there are 72 in a school bus, do the math. And I don’t want to give anyone any ideas, but if you don’t mind dying yourself, there are a lot of ways to kill most/all the children on one of these buses — and Homeland Security has on occasion sent out warnings that parents ought to personally know the driver of their child’s school bus and if it is someone other than the usual person, to immediately find out why.
Now if he had stolen a basic gasoline tanker/trailer truck with 4000-6000 gallons of gasoline in it, or a propane home delivery truck, or even worse an LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) tanker/trailer truck and simply driven it full throttle into the side of the building, even the surviving children would have horrific burns — and if it exploded rather than ignited, there might not be any survivors.
Anyone with a basic knowledge of Chemistry can go into the local Home Depot and/or Walmart and nonchalantly purchase everything needed to either create a lethal gas that can be introduced into the building’s HVAC system or and explosive that will level the building. Remember Timathy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Federal Building — that boy wasn’t overly bright, what he did wasn’t overly difficult to do. He got lucky in that he hit a structural support of the building and that the Federal building code at the time (since changed) allowed two sections of a building to rely on the same support which is why both collapsed when it did — but what he did was no more difficult than mixing concrete.
Every truck carrying Gasoline has a red diamond with 1203 on it, every truck carrying propane, either in individual 100 lb “bottles” or a bulk has 1075 on it. These “UN numbers” are one of the few things the UN has done right is create a worldwide numbering system for hazardous materials so that people know what stuff *is* when there is a wreck or something. And there is stuff a whole lot more lethal than either of these out on the highways. But just look for these two numbers the next time you go driving somewhere — and then tell me how difficult it would be to steal just one of these trucks if you didn’t mind killing and weren’t worried about criminal prosecution because you intended to be dead.
And as to nonchalantly buying a bomb at the local WalMart or Home Depot, with some degree of frequency I am freaked out by how recklessly nonchalant the cashiers are in tossing around things like Starting Fluid (which is pressurized ether and *highly* explosive) and yes Alana, I do say something about this. The mouse poison that I have to buy more of this afternoon is actually a nerve agent — that affects all mammals including humans, and for which there is no antidote. And I mean “Nerve Agent” as in “Chemical Warfare” nerve agent — the scary stuff. And I have seen Arsenic as well — and we won’t even get into some of the paint strippers or the two very common chemicals that are mixed to produce a suicide gas so lethal that first responders are warned to never open the car door themselves but to call in the HazMat team in full protective gear to do it, after evacuating everyone downwind, as the stuff is that lethal.
So all of you who want to worry about guns — GET REAL. There are a whole lot more lethal things than guns out there, essentially anything with “ORM-D” on it can be hazardous, that is why it is labeled as an “Otherwise Regulated Material” exempted because of its “Domestic” (or household) use. And remember too that on September 11th, they used box cutters. Not guns.
how many "cloture"s does Israel have? that guy and every marginal soul in every nook and cranny is here in the States is, should they desire, one step away from arming up, locking and loading. seriously. this is america we are talking about. arming more yahoos in a domestic balance of terror may not cut down that 11,000 firearms mortality rate.
He was a homicide bomber, he just used a gun rather than something else, and we are fortunate that it was a gun because that kept the death toll way down. And banning guns won't prevent this from happening again. n nHe killed 20 children — there are 72 in a school bus, do the math. And I don't want to give anyone any ideas, but if you don't mind dying yourself, there are a lot of ways to kill most/all the children on one of these buses — and Homeland Security has on occasion sent out warnings that parents ought to personally know the driver of their child's school bus and if it is someone other than the usual person, to immediately find out why. n nNow if he had stolen a basic gasoline tanker/trailer truck with 4000-6000 gallons of gasoline in it, or a propane home delivery truck, or even worse an LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) tanker/trailer truck and simply driven it full throttle into the side of the building, even the surviving children would have horrific burns — and if it exploded rather than ignited, there might not be any survivors. n nAnyone with a basic knowledge of Chemistry can go into the local Home Depot and/or Walmart and nonchalantly purchase everything needed to either create a lethal gas that can be introduced into the building's HVAC system or and explosive that will level the building. Remember Timathy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Federal Building — that boy wasn't overly bright, what he did wasn't overly difficult to do. He got lucky in that he hit a structural support of the building and that the Federal building code at the time (since changed) allowed two sections of a building to rely on the same support which is why both collapsed when it did — but what he did was no more difficult than mixing concrete. n nEvery truck carrying Gasoline has a red diamond with 1203 on it, every truck carrying propane, either in individual 100 lb "bottles" or a bulk has 1075 on it. These "UN numbers" are one of the few things the UN has done right is create a worldwide numbering system for hazardous materials so that people know what stuff *is* when there is a wreck or something. And there is stuff a whole lot more lethal than either of these out on the highways. But just look for these two numbers the next time you go driving somewhere — and then tell me how difficult it would be to steal just one of these trucks if you didn't mind killing and weren't worried about criminal prosecution because you intended to be dead. n nAnd as to nonchalantly buying a bomb at the local WalMart or Home Depot, with some degree of frequency I am freaked out by how recklessly nonchalant the cashiers are in tossing around things like Starting Fluid (which is pressurized ether and *highly* explosive) and yes Alana, I do say something about this. The mouse poison that I have to buy more of this afternoon is actually a nerve agent — that affects all mammals including humans, and for which there is no antidote. And I mean "Nerve Agent" as in "Chemical Warfare" nerve agent — the scary stuff. And I have seen Arsenic as well — and we won't even get into some of the paint strippers or the two very common chemicals that are mixed to produce a suicide gas so lethal that first responders are warned to never open the car door themselves but to call in the HazMat team in full protective gear to do it, after evacuating everyone downwind, as the stuff is that lethal. n nSo all of you who want to worry about guns — GET REAL. There are a whole lot more lethal things than guns out there, essentially anything with "ORM-D" on it can be hazardous, that is why it is labeled as an "Otherwise Regulated Material" exempted because of its "Domestic" (or household) use. And remember too that on September 11th, they used box cutters. Not guns.
It is typical of Israeli sentiments to state that Israelis are more trusted gun owners and handlers than Americans but then again, Israel has seven million Jews riding herd over millions of Palestinians under duress of an armed and dangerous society of settlers defending the indefensible act of theft of land by armed incursions into thers homes, neighborhoods and farms often murdering Palestinians in cold blood, which is deemed "deterrence" of Arabs prosperity by armed Jews in most sane quarters of analysis worldwide. n n It may seem right for this author to state unequivocally that Israelis handle their weapons more safely and sanely than Americans but then again, whom is it that always taunts America to make war on Israeli "enemies" but these same self righteous Jews armed and dangerous to Arabs? n n So the premise here is that if all are armed and dangerous all are safer from harm which fully omits any Israeli abuses of Palestine as armed death marches over defenselessly caged people as emanating from Israeli culture. Israel can't have it both ways, it is either armed and dangerously threatening other non Jewish peoples and hence a bigoted self excusing irrationaly bad acting people or it is a society of armed people whose trust in their guns to keep them safe is far too simplistic a rationale for all being armed and dangerous as a national front of self protection. In one way Israel forgets that it is a pariah among peoples and among nations for it;s nonsensical notions of Jewish entitlement to others lands. not a vaunted society of armed patrons of international peace between peoples. Israelis are gutless thugs to Palestinians, to Americans and to most knowledgeably literate intellectuals and to tout such a viciously selfish Israeli countenance as more mature than it's patron saint America is preposterously inane as it is repulsive.
The Norwegian guy killed dozens of kids, and Norway has strict gun control laws. n nThere is no preventing evil and craziness. n nA nation of 330 million will have many crazy people. Many will be out walking the streets because of how our health care system operates. American society tends to atomize families and isolate individuals who are of marginal personality. The problem is multifactorial. n nI don't believe we can prevent acts such as occurred. We can try to defend against them by arming teachers, etc. Taking guns away wil never happen at this point, and if we did, we would be taking them from the responsible people who will obey the law and turn them in. Crazies and criminals will not turn in their guns. The majority will be even more vulnerable. There are hundreds of millions of guns out there. n nThe horse has long left the barn on gun control. n nAt the end of the day, we are responsible for our own safety. Police are not obligated to stop crimes, only to apprehend those that commit them.
Aspberger's kids are not violent. I had this conversation with a SPED director last night, we both are saying this is exactly what we would NOT expect someone with Aspberger's to do. n nSomething else pushed him over the edge. We can call that a mental illness too, but something pushed him over the edge. Something triggered him — and the FBI is saying they found out what it is in a search of his house. n nI think we are being way to expansionist in the definition of "crazy" — and failing to make a distinction between those who may have treatable mental illnesses and those who are a menance to society. The current mental health approach is adversarial — we have almost created a new nobility whom we worship and whose decrees we accept without question — I think some of the mental health people are crazier than any of their clients ever could be. n nDoes the peer-support approach of the anti-psychiatry movement have any merit? Should we retain the current adversarial model and just provide the equivalent of public defenders to advocate for the patient's interests? n nAnd are we actually making the situation worse in what we currently are doing. I end this as I started, I would not have beleved it possible for an Aspberger's person to do what that kid did, so what pushed him not only to do it, but to be able to do it? n nWHAT DID THAT SCHOOL SYSTEM DO TO HIM???
Of course if I were deeply cynical, which of course I'm not, I'd point out that if you want to do precisely nothing re gun control in America, simply point out Israel's success to CNN, NPR, MSNBC and the Obama administration and its flunkies generally and they will run from it faster than a mob of rock throwing Arabs when the Army shows up. Any of them would happily go down in a hail of bullets than give a nod to anything Israeli. In fact Christiane Amanpour would likely excoriate the Jews for being so 'oppressive' and 'militaristic'. So there you have it.
"In fact Christiane Amanpour would likely excoriate the Jews for being so 'oppressive' and 'militaristic'. " nThe way Jerry did above.
Every house has a few doors that are normally left open, and I grew up in a culture where such doors inevitably had at least one long firearm (rifle or shotgun) stored behind them. A culture where there often was a bowl on the kitchen table filled with assorted rounds of ammunition and where .22 bullets were often used as writing implements when a pencil couldn't be found. n nOn the other hand, random adults — not just my parents, but anyone — likely would have knocked me sideways had I pointed a toy gun at them. It was something you simply did not do, not a toy gun, not a real gun, not even your finger pretending it was a gun, it was something you simply did not do. And I would no more do it now than walk down the street naked, it is that engrained as a fundamental absolute thing that is not done. n nYou absolutely do not bring loaded weapons into the house, the bowl on the kitchen table is where all the stray rounds of ammunition are dropped like loose change. But you absolutely don't do this, no more than you leave the house without wearing clothes. n nIf you grow up around guns, in a gun culture such parts of Rural Maine, if you have these values instilled in you at a very young age and consistently and universally reinforced, then no matter how mad you are, no matter how drunk you are, no matter even how crazy you are — you won't even think of loading one and shooting someone, people don't. n nMost (all) of these shooters are kids who grew up pointing toy guns at people, or pointing video game guns at people, and that is a point that needs to be made. n nAlana, I disagree with you on gun safety education — I think every child should be taught it.
Two other points relevant about Israel — first, to some extent, it is a theocracy which America used to be — Israel is "the Jewish State" the way that America used to be a "Christian nation." n nRemember that the First Amendment initially only applied to the Federal Government, each individual state was free to keep its own religion. It was a compromise between MA & VA who both feared that the other state's religion would be imposed nationally, with all the small states having a similar fear. Hence MA/CT/ME was Puritan/Congregationalist, PA Quaker, MD Catholic, VA Anglicn, etc. And the Congregational Church remained the official taxpayer-supported church of Massachusetts until 1855 — you had to both have a church and a minister in order to become incorporated as a town. n nHow much does Israel's common shared religion — and a shared common foe — serve to become a cultural "glue" that tends to reign in outliers? We can talk mental health (although Aspberger's kids are meek and quiet, not mass murderers) but all of these shooters are kids who lived a long time way out on the fringe of society. Kids who in an earlier age would have been very much a topic of concern for the Minister, Priest or Rabbi — who would have reached out to them in a charitable/religous nature and not a psychoogical/punative one. n nTwo generations ago, almost all American children were brought up in *some* religious faith, essentially some branch of Christianity or Judaism. They were taught Judeo-Christian values which kids aren't being taught today, they were brought up in two-parent families — even the Black community consisted of two-parent famlies with the extended family serving as a support network. n nThe shooter's mother is from New Hampshire — her husband divorced her, I didn't see any comment from any religious person so she likely didn't have that, and she was off into some fringe doomsday cult. So look at the kid — he's going to Western Conn State at 16 with adults and I still think this was all triggered by his finding out that his mother and the school psychologist signed off on an involuntary committment. n nThe one thing that troubled children have in common is a terrible home life. I know of situations where kids intentionally try to get put onto in-school suspension because the teacher running that program, retired military, is consistent and stable and for that day they will have some consistency and predictably in their lives. I don't say this lightly, but a lot of these children would be far better off in a well run orphanage, their home lives are truly that terrible. n nHence my two questions are if Israel, to the extent it is a theocracy or at least vestages thereof, has more of a cultural glue than we do, and if that tends to hold families together more and provide more of a social support network for both children and parents. n nHow many of these shooters come from households where both biological parents are living together in a healthy relationship?
Psychological evaluations are nothing more than an inquiry as to prejudice — does the person conform with approved prejudices or not. n nThere would have been no Holocaust — or at least a far different outcome to it — had the 10 million or so Jews in Europe been armed. Even if 10% of them had been — that would have been a million guns, as opposed to what, the three they had in the Warsaw Ghetto. n nThe first thing Hitler did was ban private ownership of firearms. Your imposition of a psychological evaluation would be a distinction without a difference, exactly how many Jews do you think would have passed a National Socialist psychological exam? n nAnd instead of requiring gun safety as a requirement for obtaining a gun, lets just teach it to everyone in the elementary schools like we used to. A century ago, 7th and 8th graders were actually taught to shoot a 22 rifle as part of their school curriculum and the elementary schools had gun ranges in the basement.
"Police records show that more than half the GSWs suffered by homeowners during home invasions come from their own, legally owned firearms. n n' nI tend to doubt that.
How about the home invasion in Connecticut where the doctor's wife and two teenaged daughters were repeatedly raped and then burnt to death. All three of those women were old enough to fire a gun at point blank range and one of them doing that would have ended this with the three of them at least still alive…