In the last week, the New York Times has published two articles on the simmering controversy in Israel over the right of non-Orthodox Jewish women to worship at Jerusalem’s Western Wall. The Wall may be a sacred site for all Jews, but it is operated as an open air Orthodox synagogue under the authority of a foundation determined to keep it that way. Thus the desire of women who adhere to the beliefs of Conservative, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism to pray with Torah scrolls and in prayer shawls is considered a breach of the peace leading to unfortunate scenes in which female worshipers have been dragged off to jail. As far as most American Jews are concerned this is an outrage, and the latest argument over the activities of the Women of the Wall, who have been pushing to change the status quo there, has created another surge of anger that has led Prime Minister Netanyahu to say that he will initiate a study by Natan Sharansky that will seek to explore ways to make the place more accommodating to all Jews.
Whether Netanyahu is sincere or not, the Women of the Wall are entitled to react to this proposal with cynicism. It’s highly unlikely that Netanyahu will do anything at the Wall to upset the religious parties that make up his governing coalition. The non-Orthodox—who make up the overwhelming majority of American Jews—can choose to see this as one more reason to distance themselves from the Jewish state. But the reason why nothing is likely to change there tells us more about the divide between Israeli Jews and those of the Diaspora than any bad will on the part of the prime minister. The problem here is not so much prejudice against Reform and Conservative Judaism—though that exists in abundance among the Orthodox establishment in Israel—but the fact that those denominations remain tiny and without much influence in the country.
The battle over the Women of the Wall is just one more illustration of the gap between the rhetoric about Israel being the heritage of all of the Jewish people and the fact that the country is, as a matter of course, always going to be governed to suit the needs and the beliefs of those who live there.
In the United States, where the Orthodox remain a minority in the Jewish community—albeit the only one that is growing rather than shrinking in terms of population—the treatment of Reform and Conservative Judaism in Israel remains a source of anger and puzzlement. To many American Jews, the fact that Reform and Conservative rabbis and congregations in Israel are not given the same support as those of the Orthodox seems to be an expression of pure bias. The relegation of the Women of the Wall to an out-of-the-way section of the Wall known as Robinson’s Arch for their prayer services is viewed as a contradiction of the country’s purpose as the homeland of all of the Jewish people.
But as much as the Reform and Conservative movements have made some strides in recent years, they remain a tiny minority in the country. It may no longer be true that, as some wags used to say, there are more Scientologists in Israel than Reform or Conservative Jews, but the same point still applies: the political constituency inside Israel for equal treatment for non-Orthodox denominations is practically non-existent.
To those who say that politics should have no role in determining decisions that ought to be made on the basis of the principles of religious freedom and pluralism, the only response is to point out that this is one point on which Israel has more in common with European democracies where there is an established religion than with the United States. In a country such as Israel where religion and state are not separated as they are in America and the clergy is paid by the state, the question of who is a rabbi is inherently political.
Though, as critics of the Orthodox establishment rightly point out, most Israelis are not observant, the vast majority still sees Orthodoxy as the only valid form of Judaism. By contrast, Reform and Conservative Judaism are viewed as foreign imports whose adherents are mostly American immigrants. There is strong support among the Israeli electorate for disestablishing or cutting back on the influence of rabbinate, but there is little interest in the question of giving equal treatment to the non-Orthodox. That is a source of understandable frustration for American Jews, but until the ranks of Conservative and Reform Judaism inside Israel swell to the point that they have some kind of political clout, no Israeli government will care much about them. This is also the reason why most Israelis either don’t care about the Women of the Wall or dismiss them as publicity-seeking Diaspora troublemakers.
The symbolism of the Wall is such that Netanyahu is right to make some sort of gesture about the issue that will calm American Jewry. The Wall ought never to have been allowed to become yet another point of contention in this manner. Letting the Orthodox authorities abuse the non-Orthodox who wish to worship there according to their own lights is a problem that can only worsen the already tattered ties between Israel and the Diaspora. But stripping it of Orthodox control simply isn’t in the cards. That doesn’t make what has happened at the Wall right, but the fact that most American Jews don’t understand why this is so just illustrates how little they know about the country.
I don't think the Israeli authorities should bend to Reformed or Conservative segments of Judaism. They only serve to water down true Judaism and make it more protestant. I'm an American Jew and I am non-observant but if I am going to go to services, I expect it to be traditional judaism, not some sort of half-methodist Fanta (I call them that because its fruity sugar water) Judaism where some guy strums a guitar through the Amida and the whole prayer takes about 30 seconds. There is a reason why Orthodox Judaism is the only segment that is growing and its not just because they have more kids. Its because the kids they do have tend to actually think of themselves as Jews and tend to marry other Jews. Reformed and Conservative Fanta Jews' kids dont see a problem with marrying non-Jews and no matter how hard they promise to make their kids Jewish, those kids are more often than not, more Christian than Jewish. n nIt is simply better for the Jewish people to have Orthodox Judaism as the established form of the religion.
I have no problem with marrying a non Jew. Some of the most determined Jews I know, were not born Jewish!
There are always exceptions. One guy I know just complained about his converted wife forcing him to come home early on Fridays. But that's definitely a minority. One family has the kids go to church on Sunday and another all got crosses from the inlaws.
A non-Jew and a convert are two very different things, my friend. Converts are most definitely not non-Jews, and it is a serious aveirah to refer to one as being a non-Jew.
I did not express myself well____I meant to say marry a non Jew and add to the tribe.
If she is a non-Jew and does not convert, you have not added to the tribe unless and until any children of the marriage convert. Having a Jewish father is not enough to make them Jewish.
For the record, what you are describing as "Fanta Judaism" only describes services within the Reform and sometimes Reconstructionist movements. Within the Conservative Movement, services are much the same as Orthodox services, with 2 exceptions: everything is egalitarian, and there is usually a little more praying out loud as a congregation (sans guitar – just voices) rather than rushing through "silent" chanting of the prayers.
Deformed Judaism – er, rather Reformed Judaism and Conservative Judaism give rise to the likes of 'Rabbi Lerner', Tom Friedman, and others. This is not lost on Israelis. n nA sure way to lose Israel is to let the lazy, assimilationist American forms of Judaism attain parity with the Orthodox. n nI also, though not religious, prefer Orthodox rites when I do attend. n n
Comments from the non-observant praising Orthodox Judaism and deriding the Conservative and Reform are good for a laugh — at their expense, of course.
Well, here's a comment from someone who tries to be observant. First, the Women of the Wall DO have a section of the wall where they can play to their heart's content. But their leader, Anat Hoffman, has said that they will not be content until they can daven anywhere they like, any way they like, any time they like. Translation: they complain about the Wall being run as an Orthodox place of worship, but they want to convert the entire Wall to a reform place of worship (keeping in mind that historically, Conservative and Reconstr. are offshoots of Reform). n n2. The papers seldom report that Ms. Hoffman is a paid employee of the Reform Movement, and specifically a Reform organization specifically intended to make it impossible to practice Orthodox Judaism. n n3. Reform and its progeny have little relevance and little attraction for most Israelis, apart from a handful of Anglo olim. Most Israelis realize that these movements were a reaction to the challenge of retaining Jewish identity while trying to fit into a Christian society. n n4. Hoffman and her group discover their deeply felt need to pray once a month, on Rosh Hodesh. As one Orthodox woman remarked, the real "Women of the Wall" are the ones who are there early every morning, rain or shine, praying and saying tehillim without making a show or calling attention to themselves. And these women find the antics of Hoffman's group distracting, annoying and embarrassing. n n5. There are reform temples in Israel where women can pray with talesim, sifrei Torah or what have you. Hoffman and her group don't care because their goal is to end Orthodox worship at the Wall and to make headlines.
That was very informative. Funny how Commentary effectively takes the reformed/leftist side without knowing or at least not expressing the facts of the case. It seems like the writers are just a bunch of elitist NY Jews who look with disdain at anything they consider to be too conservative (and I don't mean the branch of Judaism). I'm a NY-area Jew and I see too much of it around here.
Thanks for this. n nWhat these women are trying to do is to render Orthodox Judaism illegal or illegitimate by virtue of it being 'sexist'. Yes, let's take a modern PC concept, and use it as a weapon against people we don't like. n nKind of like the Arabs complaining about the lack of democracy and freedom in Israel when it is the only place in the mid east they have democracy and freedom. n nWhat a sorry bunch we are. Even with enemies at our throats, we fight each other with daggers. n nIf I recall correctly, that is how we ended up with only a Western Wall remaining from the whole Temple. Our internecine fighting allowed the Romans to come in and demolish everything. n nWhat will we be left with this time?
"What these women are trying to do is to render Orthodox Judaism illegal or illegitimate by virtue of it being 'sexist'. " n nIn fact there was one group – it may have been Meretz – that wanted to block one of the Hareidi parties from the knesseth election because its slate was not evenly balanced between men and women. There were no women on its slate because the women who support that party are not exactly interested in running for office. Again, the goal is to make the very existence of hareidim illegal. n nBut in the case of Women of the Wall, it cuts not only at hareidim but at all Orthodox Jews.
Even funnier, Trollel, is to see you of all people say that someone's opinion should be discounted because they are not observant. n nNo one here discounts YOUR opinions simply because you are non-observant. We discount your opinions on the merits, because they are devoid of factual and logical support.
My comments seem to have churned up the waters and brought a few bottom-feeders to the surface.
n nhillelA n ngo piss up a rope
Sure, slide down it.
me too
Anat Hoffman ,in my opinion,is a complete fraud who knows how to get rich liberal Jews to give her money .Her actions are provocative and lead to violence.Her group disrupts the peace of legitimate worshipers at the Western Wall.The useful idiots who surround her usually come from abroad and bring strife to a land in search of peace.
The majority of Israel's first settlers were nonreligious and in fact were secular -Zionists. Ben Gurion changed the attitude of the Israeli populace toward Orthodoxy when he gave them control of the everyday of the people in order to garner their support for a Jewish State. It is not just the Women do the Wall issue. it is the control the Orthodox rabbinate has over every aspect of what we consider civil authority here in the USA; marriage, divorce, birth (who is a Jew) etc. Orthodox attitude toward non-Orthodox is indeed insulting and dismissive. n nIsrael will not lose the diaspora because of any issues associated with Zionism. The vast majority of Jews agree with Israel's right to exist and defend herself.Israel will lose the diaspora because they will tell us that we are not Jewish enough or our children and grandchildren will not be Jewish enough to suit the orthodox. While you say that we in the diaspora do not understand life in Israel and how Israelis think, the reality is that Israelis do not understand life in the diaspora and that our love of Israel does not come before our love of our own children and grandchildren. Turn your backs on our families and Israel will stand alone.
Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree (mangled aphorism).You write: "The vast majority of [American] jews agree with israel's right to exist and defend itself" You mean those Rabbis of a prominent New York conservative synagogue who applauded the Un vote in favor of the PLO? You mean all those well-meaning rabbis (think Lerner and acolytes) who don't stop in their criticism of Israel's right to defend itself? you mean all those hundreds of (mainly reform and conservative) rabbis who declare on a daily basis that the 'occupation" by israel is illegal? You see, dear friend, Israelis are allergic to any ciritcism coming from those jews who, in comfort, criticize israel at every turn. In reality, Israelis have only contept for those american jews who don't stand shoulder to shoulder with them. If american jewry is lost, it is because of intermarriage, assimilation and a total misunderstanding of Israel.
I do not agree with the progressive Manhattan Upper Westside Jewish perspective of non-reality. But not a one of these rabbis said that they do not want Israel to survive. Recent polls show that in fact Jewish-Americans (especially the young despite what Bainart may tell you) and the American people are overwhelmingly pro-Israel. Now as far as Jewish progressives and their self-important idea that hey can tell Israel how to defend itself… that is another issue entirely. n nBy the way, you also put too much stock in rabbis and what they think about anything especially (the Lerners of the world). Jewish-Americans are known for their independence and their forthrightness. We make up our own minds about a myriad of issues. Israel is no different..
Lib, it's not a question of "Jewish enough." If they are the children of a Jewish mother, or if they had a proper conversion, they are Jewish. Period. It does not matter where or if or how often they go to synagogue or what 'denomination' they consider themselves. No Orthodox Jew, here in the US or in Israel, will tell you otherwise, as we follow the halacha that has been established for thousands of years, long before there were 'denominations'. n nBut if they are the children of a non-Jewish mother, or if they or their mother never had a proper conversion, then they are not Jewish unless and until they have a proper conversion, no matter how much you love them or their mother and how much your family accepts them, or how many ignorant heterodox rabbis assure you to the contrary. No Orthodox Jew, here in the US or in Israel, will tell you otherwise, as we follow the halacha that has been established for thousands of years, long before there were 'denominations'. n nAnd 'proper' conversion means they cannot convert with the intention that some of the mitzvot are outdated or optional or not mandated by G-d. We have no power to change that. If those facts hurt your feelings to the point that G-d forbid you would want nothing to do with us, please keep in mind that we have not rejected you, you have rejected us.
But here again you prove my point. The Orthodox feel that they alone hold the key to Judaism and this is simple hubris. There have always been different branches/schools of Judaism from the time of Abraham to the present. Simply because some old men in a ghetto at some point decided what it means to be a Jew doesn't mean they are correct. Hashem did not come down from heaven and decide that the Orthodox are better Jews than the rest of us. n n
A portion of the diaspora not only stopped supporting Israel but instead is actively supports anti-Israeli forces. Most of Jewish clergy that is involved i.e. 500 Rabbis against … settlements etc are 99% affiliated with non-Orthodox denominations. Most anglo-Olim that have come recently to Israel are Orthodox. Most young kids studying in Israel are Orthodox. Where are the others? Busy promoting some Liberal ideology. It was the choices that their parents made that enstranged them from Israel, not the marriage system in Israel.
Honestly, if the Reformed or Conservative really cared about Israel they would let this issue go until a later time when Israel is not faced with the threats it has to deal with now. That may be a long time, but this issue is of such little importance that they ought to let it slide, even if (for the sake of discussion) they have a point. n nThe only relevance of this issue now is to hurt Israel politically with American Jews. It is not in reality a religious issue.
"Though…most Israelis are not observant, the vast majority still sees Orthodoxy as the only valid form of Judaism." n nDo you have a citation for this? I doubt it's true. n nThere are, of course, the Orthodox and the ultra-Orthodox. In NYC, the latter voted heavily for Romney. And yet, according to the Times, “half…receive food stamps, and one third receive Medicaid benefits and rely on federal vouchers to help pay their housing costs.”
You remind me of groucho marx- "whom do you believe, your own eyes or me?"_There must be thousands of orthodox synagogues in israel, of all streams. How many reform and/or conservative synagogues are there in israel? 10? 15? this is a tiny fraction-so i ,for one, don't need a 'citation', especially if it comes from you._The second part of your comment makes even less sense. Last time I looked, Americans are entitled to vote for whomever they want. Whether they were receiving federal benefits is totally irrelevant, the same way millions of social security recipients voted for Romney.
The second part of Trollel's post is easy to understand. He is saying that he thinks Orthodox Jews are hypocrites, and therefore sees no reason to continue letting them worship in an Orthodox manner in a place that was always an Orthodox place or worship (except when all Jewish worship was prohibited there by the Romans and later the Christians and the Muslims), and was never a place of reform worship. He's saying that because he does not like Orthodox Jews, no one should mind if Israel lets Anat Hoffman and her publicity clowns turn the Wall into a one big reform temple and if Orthodox Jews don't want to pray in a reform temple, it's their choice and their tough luck.
his talking points are daily fare in "Failed Messiah" blog
Or the Forward.
Bottom line: a lot of hoo-ha but no citation. What a surprise!
Do you have any proof to offer that Tobin is mistaken as to how Israelis view heterodox Judaism? You certainly haven't cited any. What a surprise. Bottom line: HillelA = troll = Trollel.
bottom line there is a citation but, whoa, you refuse to look at it. n nWho wudda thunk it?? HillelA avoid actual engagement with empirical reality??? n nNo way!!!! n n nPeople have been discussing it *at length* — according to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics and the Guttman study the self-identified "progressive" Reformodox Jews in Israel tops out at 8-10%. Yes, anecdotally that is on the high side.
"As far as most American Jews are concerned this is an outrage, .." n nyou mean those American Jews who never attend shul?
As well as those who attend for an hour or so 3 days a year and for the Bar Mitzvahs of their kids and their friends' kids.
Thanks for the articles Ahadhaamoratsim. These people need to realize that nothing cuts off Jews from Judaism more than making it unrecognizable.
It's also worth remembering that the NYT's Israel reporter is not exactly a fan of the Jewish state, and has been caught posting some things about it on social media that embarrassed even the NYT. If something will make Israel look bad to her US readers, she's not likely to pass up the opportunity.
One wonders why the liberals are unconcerned that nexus of the entire world for 1.3 billion Muslims is banned for all women.
Here's the other thing – this WOW group will never get the support of Israelis because Israelis have nothing but justifiable contempt for American Judaism, and little respect for American Jews (in the aggregate) other than as achievers of vast wealth and some political influence. n nThe fact that gay marriage and abortion trumped Israel for American Jews, and that they reelected the detested Obama by such a large majority did nothing to endear American Jews to Israelis or earn their respect; lazy, selfish, soft, and out of touch with what day to day life is like in Israel, and what its strategic predicament is. Ask any Israeli who feels comfortable enough to tell you the truth. n nThe loudmouth American Jews who shit on Israel every chance they get have an impact in Israel, but zero influence.
whoa. anywheres from 100,000 to 600,000 Israelis (predominantly Jews) are living in the United States–60,000 have taken out dual citizenship and so have *become* American Jews–imo there's more back and forth than you give credit for
Israelis also don't have any respect for Israelis who have left Israel. They are essentially viewed as traitors by many. There is a very virulent nationalism that goes on in Israel which makes them think they have the best of everything. Israel is a great country and Im a strong supporter but they go a bit overboard (not in the case of this article though as I agree that reformed and conservative Judaism is a joke). They go on and on how they have the best schnitzel, milk, cream, sun tan lotion etc. But then before you visit they beg you to bring them gap sweat shirts, 7 jeans etc. And god forbid you mention how much money both the government and private American Jews send to Israel.
actually, the money sent to Israel from the US (public and private) is now a small fraction of the GDP. Probably about 2-3%. A total stop would not make much of a difference in israel. The GD is 245 billion (with a b) dollars. Total aid from the US and private donations are ,at most,4 to 5 billion dollars. make the math. it is a long time since US aid was crucial.
I agree. That's why I'm not scared by Rand Paul's talk of ending foreign aid to everybody, unlike some of the Commentary writers. But the point of my post was not about the money, its just that Israelis always think their way is the best way even when they know it really isn't. My Israeli wife got into an argument once at a SuperPharm with the manager because she wanted to know why they only had one brand of sun tan lotion and that was it (it was pretty expensive for lotion) and the woman's response was "its very good, why do you need more than one". They don't really understand capitalism or free market competition over there.
2-3% of a nation's GDP is HUGE.
Hillel is here right. (Egads!) Consider that those of us who care about defense often point to the historical percentage of GDP spent on it. Consider also that fiscal conservatives like to pin government spending at about 19% of GDP. I don't know about michaelmas12's number, and don't know if he includes the check that we essentially send to our own defense industry in Israel's name, but still, that 2-3% (if left undisputed) is no small sum. n nmaxjacobs67 is wrong for reasserting that there is little to fear with Rand Paul's proposals, and Rand Paul is wrong for first proposing such proposals. It heartens me, though, that max has an economically sensible wife.
sorry, but hillel is wrong and your figures are skewed. Please check wikipedia- the GDP of israel (i think 2011) is appx. 245 billion dollars. (per capita over $31,000, number 17 in the world!). I think the private donations by way of federations and outright gifts is around 500 million (half a billion). i think the foreign aid package is appx three billion dolarrs annually- all in military grants!! , this maounts to one percent of GDP. there may be some other aid or donations but israel can easily absorb a one percent loss in GDP -especially as the military aspect will certainly be less ,due to israel's advantage in certain weapons. i know it is hard for liberals to contemplate even one cent reduction in aid -see fiscal cliff, entitlement reform,etc- here in the US, but it is far from being an important part of the budget in israel, it is more symbolic than real,
I think this is bit of a stereotype. I've met Israelis over the year touring and staying in the United States who don't fit this mold. Israel's high-tech sector has many ties to the United States–Bibi himself is an example of cross-over.
It definitely depends on the Israeli. But I would say most fit the mold. But if they come to stay in the US, that usually changes their minds about things.
On a trip to Israel, I noticed that some Israelis had become Hare Krishnas or members of Falun Gong. Perhaps if Reform and Conservative Judaism were more visible and active in Israel, fewer Jews would be leaving their religion to join these exotic denominations.
You'll also find New Age cults, and even Jews for Jesus there – some native born, some immigrants.
Tell me, George, how many American Jews fall for these same cults? Or the Jees for Jewsus? And surprise, it's the kids from heterodox homes who are the most vulnerable. n nHeteredox Judaism in the long run cannot satisfy the human need to feel a part of a larger whole, to have a purpose to one's life, to have clear immutable standards of right and wrong, and to have the opportunity to in some way connect as it were with the Infinite by attempting to perform His will. People fall for these cults looking to fill the void left by a secular, humanist culture.
The reason they joined those cults is because after the army, many Israelis go on extended trips to places like India, Thailand and China. To see the world a bit after being constrained by regimented army life and after a lifetime in a very small country. It really has nothing to do with reformed or conservative Judaism.
always be some damaged individuals who are attracted to cults
Only 8% identitied themselves as hareidi? That's hard to believe given their birth rate and family size as compared to secular or even Dati Leumi. I thought they were the fastest growing segment of the Jewish population. n nWhere was the sampling done – Tel Aviv? On Ben Yehudah? Some upscale canyon? The Madonna concert?
Tell me Max, how many sun tan lotions do you need, anyways? What makes you so special? Tell your wife to buy the lotion that's available and go enjoy the sun and stop arguing over shtuyot. n n(joking) n nNo one ever said Israelis were universally pleasant or polite or appropriate. They have come a long way in recent years, however . . . n nI am inclined to cut them a little slack. n nAmerican Jews, who are undeserving of any slack whatsoever, are, at least the ones in the public domain, far from pleasant, polite, and appropriate (in the aggregate).